-The question was spurred on by the famed Alien vs. Predator paradox
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Erik asked me to post this (abridged) discussion he and I had offline about the topic. I realize most of you don't care. For those that do:
Parke:
As I recall, the second is a break-down of the arc, as defined by the
time it takes the sun to travel across the sky, meaning the sun (from our
primitive geocentric perspective) travels overhead sixty seconds of arc in one
minute.
Anticipating your motive, this is what pisses me off about your AVP
postulate. Even if they gave us the base-60 method of measuring time, could some alien culture happen to have exactly the same rate of rotation on their home planet? What are the chances? 1 trillion to one? It's practically guaranteed that the speed of our rotation would be faster or slower than any other planet within several light-years. You think they came here back in Babylonian times, walked out with a stop watch, realized we were 15% too slow and called out the intergalactic tow-service to speed up our rotation until we were in sync with their clock?
I call bull.
Erik:
i stumbled across that explaination googling this s$%t instead of riding
my bike...
but what is amazing to me is that they even bothered at all... it seems
utterly useless... and until very modern times was not even practical to
measure seconds!... the concerns of ancient people as far as measuring
time went probably didnt revolve around the order of a unit so small as
the second... hey.. but its thorough... people are a trip man...
Parke:
Oh time was VERY important.
People wanted to predict things (or more accurately, better anticipate the cyclical nature of life) and the observation of the celestial heavens was tantamount to knowing the gods, gazing into a crystal ball, or at least making a better farmer's almanac. Ptolemy's work calculating a more precise mean second/division of circle gave us a new calculation of pi to 3.14166, which is startlingly accurate (3.14159 by SI).
So what?
Well think of what this new tool did to manufacturing-how much more accurate could wheels and gears be? How about architecture? The pyramids in Egypt were built based on ratios of squares and triangles inscribed inside cirlces to an accuracy of only two decimal places. (Still damn amazing).
The circle is one of the three vitruvian forms, and knowing it better and relating it to the real world is big stuff. Ditto for time. And relating time and spatial measurements... that's everything. We're still working on that today.
You might also find Hero's engine to be interesting... A steam turbine some 2000 years before anyone had a use for it.
{End Transmission, remove soap-box}
Have at it folks. Please be gentle, though, all my reference texts are packed to be moved to my new house...
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10 comments:
you forgot to add this exchange:
me:
"yeah you are right about that...
i cant think of it as relating to geometry with my 'digital watch-am i late for something' view of time... But thinking of it more as plotting and graphing the sky it obviously is very much mathematics...
It makes me think that the plotting of seconds was a major milestone in societal evolution in a lot if ways... It was one big way that information became power..."
seriously... i am unboggling my mind right now... more google searching is required to find out what societies were able to tell time in this way and what it could have meant for their social structure and heirarchy...
Some of the earliest artifacts of human "tool use/art" ever found happen to be aminal bone remnants with lunar phases charted one them.
That and "Fertility/virility" figurines. Just goes to show you how time was prioritized back then:
Food, then sex, then we use left-overs from the food to chart time.
This is also interesting, maybe... check out the the book titled Longitude.
In the 1700's John Harrison invented a very accurate time keeping device for use in measuring longitude. Seconds counted here. In the past, before GPS, without knowing longitude ships would be at a loss as to their East/West position on the globe.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe 1 arc second is 1/3600 of a degree - much smaller than what the sun "travels" in 1 second... Hey, it's snowing, so I can't ride, OK?
Erik, do you still use the Chain Driver device?
pms
weren't the Mayan pyramids some sort of time keeping device so they could tell when to sacrifice a virgin?
ps- you guys are wicked smart.
I believe 1 arc second is 1/3600 of a degree
Yeah, you're right there... I was painting with broad brush-strokes and mispoke about the actual quantification. I seem to recall the sun travels 15 degrees an hour along the ecliptic at the equator - back o' the hand thats .004 deg/s, nearly twice a power of ten faster.
The practice of dividing chords is still the same, and so the discussion is still valid.
Hamblen:
I heard about that book, "Longitude", on NPR years ago and have been meaning to read it. Thanks for reminding me...
John Leinhard ROCKS:
http://www.uh.edu/engines/Inventingtimespace/time&space.htm
and, unlike me, he even uses facts with actual cited sources...
the new DA on law and order was also a fund manager who was convicted of murder a few seasons back...
-Happens all the time, probably when people become "buddies" with someone in the production crew (as opposed to "Talent").
Sean Bean and Joe Don Baker have been in practically every other Bond film as either a supporting character or villain.
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